* Day 34: Monday, September 9             * Day 37: Thursday, September 12
   * Day 35: Tuesday, September 10           * Day 38: Friday, September 13 
   * Day 36: Wednesday, September 11

Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Don Campbell seen flicking a piece of paper across the courtroom to land next to LB's laptop computer. LB oblivious as Don ducks under his desk to avoid any blame.

Jury in and Cst. Lorne Marshall Clelland (LC) back on witness stand.

GW - Says he was on 1000 Road on Aug. 26th travelling between two checkpoints. Says it wasn't a patrol responsibility. When asked if anyone could have crossed the road between the checkpoints, he agrees that the road was not secure and could be accessed by the public on foot or horseback through numerous trails and paths. After members were relieved between morning of Aug. 27 and mid-morning when he checked road, he agrees that the road wasn't secure. Agrees he was shot at. Only person he saw was person moving in treeline. GW suggests that a person or persons could have come in by foot and waited to shoot, but LC doesn't believe that. LC does agree that road wasn't patrolled regularly and the area is vast.

LC understood that Chief Ovide Mercredi was in camp for talks, but wasn't aware that media had gone in there with him. Says that there was media parked at a checkpoint and there were trucks and trailers there. LC agrees that there were more than ten journalists, cameramen all together in this area. Agrees that there was regional, provincial and national media there and that "it was well reported." Has no personal knowledge of media attracting terrorists or protesters. Has no knowledge of hundreds of people around 100 Mile House trying to get to Gustafsen Lake.

Reiterates that he didn't see anyone shoot him and that "there was no roving patrols or no way of securing that vast an area." GW wonders if it's possible that after LC abandoned his vehicle on forestry road, the persons that shot at him could have gone to the truck and shot at it some more. LC has no direct knowledge of that. Agrees that he left truck because "I wanted to get out of the area." Says he travelled six or seven km before abandoning the vehicle. Agrees that he never saw the person in the bush heading back to the camp. GW wonders if there is any police identification on the bulletproof vest indicating that he is a policeman. The vest is pulled out and POLICE is written on both sides. LC confirms that he was in the vehicle when he was shot at. Says that machine gun (MP5) is designed to be carried with either one hand or two. He says he would have carried it in a port arms position, making the POLICE markings visible. When asked if he knew that five ERT members had snuck up on the camp, he says he doesn't know what they were doing. Says he doesn't know how they were dressed.

J asks MA to cross-examine next and then realizes he's forgotten DC. J: "Oh sorry, you're hiding in the back." DC: "Camouflage." Laughter.

DC - Confirms that man he saw in bush was running south parallel to road. When asked to show this on aerial map, he admits that the person was running away from the camp.

MA - LC first at Gustafsen Lake on Aug. 26 and finished Sept. 16, day before arrests. He was leader in charge of ten members of Prince George ERT. He was also responsible for two dog masters. Says Morrison is dog master, but not a member of "Special I". LC says that "Special I" deals with electronic surveillance equipment and setting it up. On evening of Aug. 25, he was at a briefing just for his team, but doesn't recall who gave the briefing. Says his immediate supervisor was Sgt. Ken Gates. Operation Iron Horse's Supt. was Rick Hall. Says Iron Horse was designated name given to ERT operation.

He had meetings with other ERT leaders when he would take over other ERT operations. Also when he had occasional briefings at 100 Mile House with Gates. Point Zulu near one of the checkpoints. Briefings near the end were on site at Zulu. He did not get copies of operational plans. MA has LC look through binder full of operational plans and wonders if he saw any of them. LC looks and doesn't believe he saw any plans in that format. Says that despite being a leader of ten men, he had never seen any of these operational plans. He did see a map similar to Ex. 5. LC looks at it and says that all ERT leaders were given the map. Says that during Aug. 27th, three ERT members went to site at trees, plus Morrison. Other team members were at checkpoints or sleeping. One at Checkpoint 1, two at Checkpoint 3, two at Checkpoint C, rest sleeping or with him. Says that there were different maps at each checkpoint that evolved every day to say who was where each day. Initially, he couldn't get these maps, but as they got more organized, he could go to Zulu and get map from Commander. Commanders rotated depending on the day - Moulton, Edwards, Kembel were some of these Commanders.

At the time of shooting, he wasn't aware of a "no go" area. Says that later, he was informed that communications had been made to the camp not to go beyond certain boundaries. Doesn't remember being told not to shoot into this area, nor who gave the briefing or when.

Says he was the only ERT member on his team with a machine gun. Confirms he had four clips capable of holding 30 rounds. Says he loads his own clips. He had two pairs of clips attached together which he kept on him at all times. Says that they brought down ammunition from Prince George and they were responsible for providing their own ammo. Confirms there are no written records.

J wonders if reference to Checkpoint 3 is E on map. LC says that 3 was south of E. Witness stood down. Next witness: Cpl. Malcolm Thomas Callander (MC) back again. (See his previous testimony from August 30, 1996)

HR - MC says that on Sept. 12, after 8:00 a.m., about an hour after shots were fired, he was advised by Command Centre that there was a "No Shoot Zone" between two fences on either side of camp. Says he was advised by female radio dispatcher on the radio. Says it was broadcast to all members. He tries to show on large aerial map fencelines. Shows west fenceline and east fenceline. Confirms that on radio, they came on to describe where two fencelines were. Report came from Command Post where Insp. Kembel was Operational Commander.

Confirms there was discussion about "Green Light". Says Cpl. Wyton had conversation with Kembel and that was when he was given "green light to take a shot." MC was in a room in an old hunting lodge on the south side of the lake, known as the "Perch", when Wyton called Kembel on the radio. Wyton advised Kembel of individual coming out of camp and walking towards the lake. Wyton requested permission to "take a shot." HR clarifies that he means to shoot him. MC doesn't say it was to kill someone, it was to "neutralize the threat." HR wonders why he uses this terminology. HR: "I wouldn't mind being neutralized if someone told me to shut up." MC says this is the terminology that is taught in the basic course. HR wonders if this is used so you won't feel bad and have to have trauma counselling. MC says that they still had to have trauma counselling.

Admits that all but two ERT teams of the province were called in for this situation. Says there were more "perpetrators than they normally have to deal with and the RCMP aren't used to being hunted." HR clarifies that ERT teams had to advance into the area when previously, unarmed officers would go in to the camp. Even Sarich walked up to the fence to speak to the people in the camp.

MC agrees that some of the uniformed members like Cst. Andrew were coming into the camp, but says that things escalated like when Prince George member was shot at on Aug. 27th. Callander describes this as members being shot at when they tried to remove a log. Confirms that this was information he gained from word of mouth. MC doesn't believe these were rumours when Olfert gave his team the briefing in Kamloops. Confirms that if Olfert says something, then it wouldn't be wrong. Re: Aug. 19 - he was Watch Commander in Williams Lake. He was asked by Detachment Staff Wendel and Porter to attend press conference. Agrees that Olfert was there as was Fisheries officers, Montague, Lyle James. Says that role of James at press conference was to explain to media his position that property there was deeded property and that people had been given permission to hold Sundance there, but not to build structures. Also says that his ranchers were threatened. Agrees James was there to tell his side of the story. Only natives there were Agnes Snow and other Band Councillor. No politicians there. Press conference took half an hour. It was Porter who invited the people to participate in the press conference. Says there were several members of media there. Seven or eight. Says that all the weapons from illegal fishing expedition were on display. HR says they were lumped in with Gustafsen Lake. MC says it was explained that these weapons came from the Fraser River incident and agrees that it was a separate case dealt with elsewhere. Says he explained the use of the weapons and had no trouble because he has a lot of experience with weapons. Didn't explain capabilities. HR: "And the media was left with the impression that these weapons came from Gustafsen Lake." MC: "That's correct." MC says this was the first press conference he had been to in his career where weapons were displayed like this.

Sept. 12, he set up sniper post on lake. He was assigned to Courtney ERT. Special I was there with high tech equipment. He didn't know the names of the Special I members. Says he didn't meet the members when they brought equipment in. Believes they carried in a high powered video camera, batteries and a generator. They carried this down to the old lodge. The equipment had been left there the day before when all the shooting was taking place across the lake. He set up post at 8:00 a.m. with three partners. On afternoon of 12th, he was pulled out of area. Special I didn't believe it was a good location. That was the last time he saw Special I. Camera gear left up the trail, 200-300 yards from lodge.

MB/ HR cont'd with Cpl. Callander - MC clarifies that shooting happened Sept. 12. Sniper's nest set up in old lodge and known as the "Perch". Inside building, there was a large living room area with windows facing the lake. The only furniture in this living room was an old table. He was instructed to go there by Cpl. Wyton team leader for Courtney ERT. Says earlier in the morning, Wyton had communicated to Command Post to get tasks of the day. MC didn't hear this, but Wyton told him and team they were going to see if the lodge was suitable.

Cst. O'Gorman had a sniper rifle, 308 with Leopold scope and special barrel and stock. Confirms that this is a very accurate rifle in the hands of a marksman. MC says they are trained to fire up to 400 metres.

Says some members take a long range course that allows them to fire up to 600 metres. He agrees that he is a top grade marksman. Agrees that if he puts his sights on a man, that man is dead, depending on the range. O'Gorman is also a qualified marksman. They set the weapon up on a bipod. This stabilizes the weapon so shots can be more accurately placed. Says he has the best equipment that the RCMP supplies. He also has a laser rangefinder. MC says they look like a set of oversized binoculars. If you look through, there is a cross-hair. You put the cross-hair on the target and press the button, a laser is fired which hits the target and returns to accurately give you the distance. The person they saw was on the edge of the lake and was a thousand yards away. O'Gorman was on the gun. Both MC and Wyton used the rangefinder. HR: "The idea is to kill him." MC: "Ah yes, to neutralize him." HR: "Are we so distant that we can't say we want to kill the man? It was to kill the man, right?" MC: "That's correct." MC reiterates the protocols of use of force. HR wonders what was in MC's mind when he abandoned these protocols. MC says they didn't abandon it and it was always in his mind. MC says that a "target of opportunity" is a term that the ERT use in training. HR says there are criminals that are referred to as criminals of opportunity and MC agrees. HR compares a rapist and murderer of a woman that hits her with a car and then rapes her and the man that stalks a woman for a long time and then rapes her. HR wonders if MC was waiting for someone to come along and MC says they weren't - person arrived and was a target of opportunity. He heard Wyton speaking to Kembel, saying that a native male wearing a "gilly suit" was carrying an AK-47 and was moving towards the lake. MC never made a report of this incident. He never made a "Will Say", but did send a faxed statement on Oct. 16/95 to Murray Smith. He admits it was an important incident, but Wyton would have made out the ERT debriefing report. Says it's the team leader's job to make out the report. HR wonders if four non-police persons took a shot like this, they would all be equally guilty. LB objects and J agrees. MC says they checked with Kembel and were given permission. MC agreed with the decision. Agrees that the bullet would have killed the man had it hit him. Says the bullet is designed to be an effective killer.

The first round, by O'Gorman, landed at the fellow's feet. The Indian dropped down onto the dirt road and then O'Gorman fired a second shot. Confirms that the first shot was to keep person from going further down towards other ERT members. Says the second shot was also to do the same. MC saw the bullets hit the dirt through the spotting scope. Says second shot fell several feet to the right. Cpl. Wyton took the third shot. They didn't see where that shot landed. Says they were all concentrating hard on what they were doing. After he looked through the rangefinder to confirm the range, he used Bushnell spotting scope. Says he was told an hour after they shot at man that he was in NO SHOOT ZONE. Says the ERT members weren't aware of negotiations going on about No Shoot Zone. They were quite surprised to hear of this. Denies that their instructions were different and that it was to shoot any Indians they saw. Says they were there only to assist Special I. Says that two days prior when they were given instructions to assist Special I, there had been no mention in their briefings of a No Shoot Zone. Says that ERT wasn't aware that negotiators had negotiated a zone. Only became aware of this over the radio. Says radio report came around 9:00 a.m. They shot at 8:00 a.m. Says he was concerned about this, but didn't get on radio wondering what was happening. HR says it doesn't sound like the right hand knows what the left hand is doing. MC says that the ERT teams couldn't have known about what the negotiating teams were doing. Says that while they were deployed for 12- 16 hours, they weren't apprised of what was happening.

HR suggests that there was anger from shooting incident on the 11th of Sept. MC says it wasn't anger, but there was concern that this wasn't the type of thing they were trained to do. Denies there was a "green light to kill all Indians". Says "green light" applied only to that incident of that individual. Denies hearing of "green light" to kill all Indians. HR suggests that there was a murderous intent to kill when they fired three times. LB objects and J agrees. MC does agree that all three shots were with the intent to kill the man. Says he has shot at other people, but never three shots. Criminal Code allows shooting to protect own life or another. MC agrees that that Code hasn't changed.

ST - MC says he kept an ERT notebook during the Gustafsen Lake incident, but they were only partial notes of names of people he would pair up with, but there are no notes of Aug. 18 or of Sept. 12 because those reports were made by the team leaders. On Aug. 17, after briefing with Tassell, Porter, Sarich and Andrew, MC asked Andrew to take him out to area to get an idea of approach routes and drop off spots for their recce. Confirms that he arrived at 100 Mile House a half hour before others because he was closer, living in Williams Lake. Wilby and Porter suggested he go out there for the recce because he was Second In Charge of Kamloops SubDivision ERT. Andrew had told him of his visits to camp earlier. Andrew said that sometimes he had been allowed into the camp and sometimes he had been stopped at the gate. He knew some of the people in the camp, but not all of them and certainly not the numbers. MC says that there were no roadblocks or command posts when they went in for the recce. After the recce, there was a great amount of movement into the area by the police. Agrees there was a lot of talk going on around the ranks. Confirms that by Sept. 11, morale was dropping in the bush because of length of time out there was so long and they missed their families. Agrees that there was some restlessness initially, but after a couple of weeks being deployed in bush, members were trying to get sleep whenever they could.

ST wonders about his notion that they were hunted. ST reiterates that there was the Aug. 18 covert probe, the Suburban shooting, a shooting incident with PrinceGeorge ERT that turned out to be nothing, trip lines attached to stun grenades were being set off by animals, people were thought to be in a culvert and stun grenades were thrown in, and by the time Sept. 11 rolled around, people were getting tired. MC agrees it's a day he'll never forget. Following Sept. 11, there was a "heightened anxiety about the shooting." Felt that they were in a situation they hadn't been trained for. Says that they heard things over the radio, but didn't see anything. ST likens it to sitting in a cabin and a bunch of people crowding around listening to Hockey Night in Canada because it's the only thing on. MC agrees.

L/ Without jury. GW - regarding view of site, he would like to get decision soon. J will give it at end of day.

MA - Disclosure problems again. Willing to make things go quicker, but needs to have disclosures in timely fashion.

Jury in.

ST cont'd with Cpl. Callander - asks MC to look at Ex. 5, the map with all the code names on the roads. MC thinks map was given around Sept. 10. MC never heard of the "hanging tree." Believes that Kembel and new ERT members were assisting in the command post and these people would have assigned the animal names to the roads.

Briefings were initially at 100 Mile House with ERT team leaders, who in turn returned to field and filled in their ERT members. Halfway through standoff, they moved Command Centre to trailer near Bravo called Zulu and briefings were then for all members because there was enough room now. There were a lot of personnel that moved in as things progressed. ST suggests that there were more Superintendents here than at a convention. MC smiles and agrees there were many people there.

Alpha was the last general duty checkpoint. Beyond there, all checkpoints were manned by ERT personnel. He agrees that information was filtered down through command structure. Says that there were many different radios in use to take into account the different terrains in the area. Agrees that there were full time dispatchers assigned to monitor all the radio frequencies used. Says that there were many tasks being assigned to 400 different people and they couldn't know what everyone's tasks were or where they were. Agrees that commanders had a constant feed to the "eye in the sky" and hence would know what was going on at all times.

On Sept. 10, Cpl. Wyton would have been the person that likely would have given MC the map, but says it could have been a day or two before. Says there was a concern about putting a perimeter around the camp because that's what they normally do at a crime scene to contain everyone in one area. Says that the red truck was used often before it was "taken out of commission." Agrees that he understood that many times it was used to pick up water.

On the 10th, he and Courtney ERT team went to northwest end of lake by helicopter. Says they would have gone to "Lion", intersecting "Bear" first. Confirms that they wore regular ERT clothing and weapons. Says there were eight or nine people at intersection, including the Special I. Says that this intersection was cleared temporarily to bring in Special I and to set up post. Doesn't recall Special I men, but when Cpl. Jones is suggested by ST, MC says that he can't say for sure he was one of the two Special I men. Figures he was introduced to them, but because of all the people they met and the long hours, he can't remember. On the 11th, during the battle, he recalls hearing gunfire coming from the Perch. He was at intersection of "Monkey" and "Lion". Shows on large aerial photo, the Perch and the dock where person they shot at was. This is 1000 metres. ST suggests that a map of the No Shoot Zone was prepared at same time as Ex. 5 map and handed to ERT teams. MC denies this and says that none of the ERT members were aware of any No Shoot Zone. If Wyton had been told of No Shoot Zone, he didn't tell the rest of the team. Says that later, the various ERT members got together and were all surprised to hear that the negotiators had created a No Shoot Zone. Says that ERT team leaders are selected by a secret ballot by other team members. This results in some ERT leaders being outranked by members. Says that if he would have shot and killed someone and found out later that he was in a No Shoot Zone, MC says "yes, this would have caused me some personal difficulties." Says he was surprised that Zulu hadn't told ERT members of zone.

Knew that Command had Eye in the Sky. ST says that Eye in the Sky spotted person by lake at 8:32 a.m. Confirms that team made contact with Eye in the Sky to confirm person had a firearm. Knows that Kembel would have been in the same room with the live feed from Eye in the Sky. Agrees that he was upset because Kembel would have known about No Shoot Zone when permission was sought to kill the person.

He and LaCroix covered dam area on Sept. 12, as Special I set up equipment in the Perch. Covered their left flank. On Sept. 12, he believes Wyton had spoken to Zulu, but isn't sure. ST notes that in radio logs from Zulu, there were no communications noted at 8:30 a.m. MC says that he wasn't with Wyton when he made his transmissions. He was in Perch looking out window and was near Wyton. Note in radio logs at 8:30 a.m. from team leader to Zulu of person walking on lake. Previous transmission two minutes earlier, Eye in the Sky reported man in cammo leaving camp heading for lake. MC remembers hearing this. He hadn't spotted man before this 8:28 a.m. transmission, but afterwards he began searching with scope. They weren't even set up yet. ST notes that first shot was made within two minutes of getting permission from Zulu. To prepare for the shot from inside the main lodge, they had to swing one of the hinged windows open, move a table to the window, set up the bipod weapon on the table, and pull up a chair to shoot from. ST says it sounds like battle stations in a movie where everyone reacts in the way they were trained. MC agrees. Says that he was the man that looked up the range table, which is on a card that he carries. He reported the angle to the shooter O'Gorman. Guessed 32 degrees of an angle. Says it was a guess because tables only go to 600 metres. Agrees it was a long shot. Says that the shots were close despite being off target. ST reads from log. Eye in the Sky said person was walking to the lake and wondered if they could get permission from Zulu "to make his day unpleasant." MC can't recall specifically, but when ST says he's heard the tape and this is what was said, MC agrees it might be what was said. Agrees that following the shooting of Sept. 11, this kind of wording isn't surprising. Denies being anxious to fire, but says that if given the order, they would fire. ST suggests that in the radio reports, there is no mention of an AK-47. Only a rifle. MC agrees that there was no reference on the radio to the type of weapon. Agrees that Zulu came back within a few minutes to give permission to shoot if person was in range. MC says that person was in range of weapon, but can't say whether any of the officers could make the shot because they aren't trained to fire at those distances. ST wonders if after the first shot, they believed the person had been hit. MC says they saw the dust kick up. ST wonders if he recalls any communication about how long it would take to retrieve the body. Says that three shots took 90 seconds. Recounts what he saw. Person was walking down to the lake looking around. Rifle was at the port arms position in front of him. Rifle didn't appear to be scoped. Says he recognized the weapon as being able to fire across the lake at him. Says they came to consensus that it was an AK-47 because they thought they saw a banana clip.

He describes man as a native male 5'8-10", heavier than medium build, wearing summer camouflage, jacket with scrim or added cammo to it, floppy hat, and belt on waist - maybe a utility belt. Reported to Cpl. Murray Smith in October that this was a native male. He hadn't discussed what person looked like after the shooting. In his mind's eye, he remembers a native male. Says O'Gorman was looking through ten-power scope, Wyton was using 7x35 binoculars. Says spotting scope was strongest. Wyton used O'Gorman's rifle after second shot. He remembers that Wyton basically said "let me try it". Recalls hearing on radio of an army officer blowing off his hand with a stun grenade a half hour after they shot at man and a half hour before learning of No Shoot Zone. Says there was a lot of radio chatter at this time, but explains there was a lot all the time, especially from the Wescam.

AB/ No jury. ST - Tells J that Percy and Toby are absent.

MA - says that Defense has received over 100 tapes from the Wescam, but there is a tape from Sept. 12 that isn't complete and wants to wait to cross-examine until he sees this tape.

ST - wonders if Crown is going to have Wyton and O'Gorman testify. He'll give Crown time to respond to this query.

Jury in.

ST cont'd with Cpl. Callander - MC says that person by lake wore a soft cap. MC denies that person had weapon slung over his shoulder - it was held in port arms position. Reiterates that they can only use deadly force to protect self or others. MC clarifies that the danger this person posed was to ERT members stationed at intersection where "Monkey" runs into "Lion". Yet he and team made no warning to those members. Doesn't know if Zulu passed on this information. Agrees that he, Wyton, O'Gorman or Paul (last name unknown) made no such warnings. Agrees that person was headed for dock - the same dock that had been used by members at camp to wash up at. Confirms that person made no hostile gestures. Doesn't believe that person was aware of their presence. When asked what danger the man posed that made it necessary to kill him, MC says that he was armed, wore the same type of clothing (camouflage) spotted by other officers in other incidents, and he was walking in a direction towards ERT members. Wasn't aware of a note from Supt. Hall guaranteeing camp members safety within a No Shoot Zone. Says that Fraser River arms cache was found 30-45 minutes drive away from Gustafsen Lake. Says that weapons found at river site was consistent with weapons found later at camp like AK-47. When asked what became of weapons found at Fraser River, MC understands that they would be disposed of following an appeal period. Says that the charred weapons found in the firepit couldn't have been the same that were confiscated at the river. GW - Re: Aug. 18, MC says they were conducting a recce. He remembers it well. Says he didn't hear any words that day because he was on edge of aspen grove. He only heard shot and then communicated with others on the radio. Says he saw no one because he was at the back of the pack. On drive back, incident was discussed and they realized that Overby had the best look at the person.

The next day he was at Williams Lake and agrees he was tired. Then SubDivision Commander and entourage arrived. Agrees this is the largest press presentation that he's ever been involved in. Agrees the usual way press releases are made are typewritten statements that are sent out. Says there would have to be exceptional circumstances to display weapons. Agrees that up to the press conference, there had been no charges laid against anyone in the camp except for charges against two persons at Churn Creek (near Fraser River). On the 19th, he was not aware of any roadblocks. He knew an operational plan was being prepared and a search warrant was being prepared for the camp. Understands that under most circumstances, roadblocks are set up right away as soon as practical after a shooting. During press conference, he was there when Olfert gave description of shooting. Confirms that Olfert never told the media how they were dressed, without "Police" insignia and wearing camouflage. MC says that Olfert said to media that police were members of Emergency Response Team. Porter was there when Olfert gave press.

He was aware that following the shooting, Percy had called the RCMP to report of men sneaking around in the bush. Tassell had told him this on the way back to 100 Mile House after Tassell picked ERT team up. MC agrees that after a citizen phones in with a complaint, the RCMP call back to tell citizen what the RCMP are doing and the outcome. MC says that usually, there is a follow up. He doesn't know what 100 Mile House or Kamloops did to follow up. Confirms that Olfert never told media that Percy had phoned in with a complaint of men sneaking around the bush wearing camouflage. MC says Tassell told him that Percy called thinking the military was sneaking around. Tassell also said that someone had also called RCMP headquarters in Ottawa and headquarters had in turn called 100 Mile House. When he heard Olfert's press conference, he agrees that Olfert was only telling half the truth. MC says that the last thing he would think of doing was stand up and say that Olfert was missing part of the story. He agrees that he thought about this because the media was getting part of the story, but not the whole story. Admits that there are rednecks in the 100 Mile House area. "I guess there are people like that in all parts of society, unhappy with the status quo." Says that the press conference was used to warn people of danger in area and to get support from the local Bands. Agrees that Percy's complaint wasn't part of the conference. He doesn't know whose idea it was to pull out the weapons, but knows that they had been seized a week before. MC agrees that the RCMP can use the media very effectively. Knows that it can be used to get information out very quickly or to get some groups of people mad at other groups. Doesn't recall ever having a defense lawyer invited to these conferences and agrees that the purpose of such conferences is to get out the RCMP's story.

DC - DC wonders what part of the Criminal Code is used to allow force. MC: "I didn't know there was going to be a test." He correctly guesses Sec. 25. DC wants to show him the Code, but J wonders if this is going to be a debate on law. DC wonders if this Code is used as justification for force, but LB objects to interpretations of law. DC says that this officer interpreted this section and "performed an extraordinary act to fire at a Canadian citizen." J says that the officer got permission from his superiors and MC was comfortable with it. Doesn't want debate. DC wants MC's interpretation of the Code and LB objects again. DC doesn't want the J to decide if the Code was breached. DC decides to try a different tact. MC agrees that person on lake didn't pose any immediate danger to self and to no one he could see. Agrees he didn't have to make the decision right away to kill the man and the team had time to ask Kembel if it was a good idea.

MC found out later that the people in the camp had been informed of the No Shoot Zone before man was fired at. DC notes that man was moving down lake towards ERT squad at junction of "Monkey" and "Lion" and agrees that this is some distance away. DC reads report where MC states that the person was heading for the dock. On small aerial photo, he points to route. One of the jury members can't see the photo as DC holds it (DC is slightly shorter than "average" height). DC: "This isn't the first time I've had trouble being vertically challenged." Chuckle in the jury.

MC confirms that the Wescam had noted that camp people had been observed going to the two docks on several occasions. DC wonders if MC can quarrel that this person was walking to the dock to wash. MC says he didn't see any washing gear and saw what looked like an assault rifle. Was aware that the day before, the RCMP had fired thousands of rounds into the bush and into the camp. Wouldn't be surprised to see people walking around with weapons because persons had been observed before with weapons.

DC says he understands why MC wants us to think that the man was walking towards ERT teams, but DC notes that the docks are actually south of "Lion" - the lakeshore road. DC says we can continue tomorrow. Callander stood down. Jury leaves.

J rules on going to scene at Gustafsen Lake. Says that he initially was going to canvass the jury, but realizes that the law is to be interpreted by himself. J says that there are many videos, aerial photographs, etc. and that GW says it doesn't show the vastness of the area. J reiterates the Defense's submissions. He doesn't see how a view of the area would help when Crown submissions indicate that there is no argument that the area was vast and it wasn't sealed off. He rules that it is not in the interest of justice to permit a view. Judge exits, but not before Wolverine stands up and bellows his outrage. Jones: "I think you're just covering up for the RCMP. This is just bullshit. We might as well deal with rule of law here."

   * Day 34: Monday, September 9             * Day 37: Thursday, September 12
   * Day 35: Tuesday, September 10           * Day 38: Friday, September 13 
   * Day 36: Wednesday, September 11